Curse

paranon · Oct 19, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

hinting that people who main a mesmer are generally better than your avarage elem, sin or wammo? :P the people who from MY exp who play the best seem to have mained either a mesmer, monk or ranger.

REpve.

oh but i think we have all seen some pretty bad monks in our time eh? :P

Cuilan · Oct 19, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Been comparatively underpowered doesn mean not powerful enough to do lolpve. It means they are, when compared to other classes, less powerful...example necro.

Curse builds generally require another player or necro to deal damage.

Xenomortis · Oct 19, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Curse builds generally require another player or necro to deal damage.

Well, you can run stuff like SS.
I wouldn't recommend it for a player bar though.
Or you could hammer away with a spear yourself.

But there's nothing wrong with a build requiring teammates to get triggers off. That sort of thing is called synergy and is usually encouraged because the results are often quite high.

Allamorph · Oct 19, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I have a slightly unrelated question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

...but if you play [GW] as they are meant to be played....

What does this even mean? Guild Wars is a game, and the only way a game is meant to be played is for enjoyment. If a particular facet is designed for one purpose, and someone finds a different take on it that makes it much more useful, and nothing gets broken in the process, then how is the 'original intent' relevant at all?

That line to me seems to be just an excuse to remain stodgy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoutoriDreams

Not only that, but mesmers have arguably the 2nd best energy management capability in the game, through inspiration magic. This leaves room for just about any other caster secondary bar....

I was noticing this yesterday when I unlocked a few skills (been playing for about a month, so still fairly fresh at things), started thinking about hit rate and energy return per second and stuff, and it occurred to me that if you fired your management skills effectively you could potentially sit and cast all day, depending on your secondary profession. And that got me thinking about what they actually do.

Mesmers don't kill things.

I mean, they can. They've got enough direct-damage stuff that it's entirely possible for them to kill things. But where they excel is making it easier for their allies to kill things, and making it easier for their allies to remain alive. They're crowd control, plain and simple.

So I wouldn't say that Mesmer is the hardest profession; there really isn't a hard profession once you get into semantics. Mesmers just aren't the most straightforward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

...there's nothing wrong with a build requiring teammates to get triggers off. That sort of thing is called synergy and is usually encouraged because the results are often quite high.

Which is the point of party play, unless I am gravely mistaken.

paranon · Oct 19, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

I have a slightly unrelated question.

What does this even mean? Guild Wars is a game, and the only way a game is meant to be played is for enjoyment. If a particular facet is designed for one purpose, and someone finds a different take on it that makes it much more useful, and nothing gets broken in the process, then how is the 'original intent' relevant at all?

If you look at the context of the quote, i wasn't talking about playing gw as it was meant to be played, but playing particular classes as they are meant to be played. I was responding to someone who was saying that "No class is hard in PvE" and my point was that it depends on how you play the profession as to how hard it is.

Oh and please, don't use that font.. my eyes hurt from squinting.

Allamorph · Oct 19, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

If you look at the context of the quote, i wasn't talking about playing gw as it was meant to be played, but playing particular classes as they are meant to be played. I was responding to someone who was saying that "No class is hard in PvE" and my point was that it depends on how you play the profession as to how hard it is.

Oh and please, don't use that font.. my eyes hurt from squinting.

Aye, but classes are a facet of the game, and playing a facet of the game as it was 'meant to be played' is still attempting to play the game as it was 'meant to be played'. Or rather, the semantics of what part of the game should remain pure is irrelevant; game evolution and maturity are impossible if the game remains the same. (And you'll notice I did refer to the facet point before; I knew you meant class play.)

Obviously different play styles can't change Guild Wars itself, so I'll cede that on point of clarity. But playing a Mesmer in GW is still playing GW.

And I'd be tempted to agree with that person. No class is hard, they just require different thought patterns.

And I like that font.

There aren't any size tags, though....

I suppose I can shift to Arial. =/

Tenebrae · Oct 20, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

No class is hard, they just require different thought patterns.

Using semantics is not helping anyone. To avoid further "deja vu´s" , read #171 . Fact : There are 5+ classes that are easier to play/enjoy/whatever than mesmer.

maxxfury · Oct 20, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

If you look at the context of the quote, i wasn't talking about playing gw as it was meant to be played, but playing particular classes as they are meant to be played. I was responding to someone who was saying that "No class is hard in PvE" and my point was that it depends on how you play the profession as to how hard it is.

to add,

Playing a "vanilla" toon in pve can be very different to playing one whoring generic pve skills, any class can take a "discord caller*" style core build and run it and have the same powerful results and roll through all most anything. But then the bar usually bares very little resembelance to the classes usual skill bars.

*[assassins promise][YMLAD!][Ev Assassin][finish him!] + some utility.

So when people say play a class as its meant to be playedthey pretty much mean, without OP pve skills. Basically the old school way of playing BEFORE pve skills were added.

Soem of the pve skills have really blurred the lines when it comes to what different classes run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

oh but i think we have all seen some pretty bad monks in our time eh? :P

yeah! ill agree with that too :P but im past pugging in general now, so i dont see so many of the bad ones! :P

draxynnic · Oct 20, 2009, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

hinting that people who main a mesmer are generally better than your avarage elem, sin or wammo? :P the people who from MY exp who play the best seem to have mained either a mesmer, monk or ranger.

REpve.

"Average" is the key word, and the difference is probably more at the low end than at the high. A good player could have anything as their main, but a bad player is probably going to be playing one of the professions that is (seen as being) more powerful, so that the (perceived) power of their profession can compensate.

So if you invite, say, a Mesmer, you can feel reasonably confident that you haven't invited a Leeroy or a PvX copy-paste no-hoper into your team, since any of those players who've even tried a Mesmer in the first place have probably dumped it and made a wammo or permasin instead. (That isn't to imply that there aren't good Warrior and Assassin players - however, there are less bad Mesmer players than bad Warrior and Assassin players).

paranon · Oct 20, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

to add,

Playing a "vanilla" toon in pve can be very different to playing one whoring generic pve skills, any class can take a "discord caller*" style core build and run it and have the same powerful results and roll through all most anything. But then the bar usually bares very little resembelance to the classes usual skill bars.

*[assassins promise][YMLAD!][Ev Assassin][finish him!] + some utility.

So when people say play a class as its meant to be playedthey pretty much mean, without OP pve skills. Basically the old school way of playing BEFORE pve skills were added.

I should probably clarify what i meant by playing a class "as it is meant to be played". eg:

Mesmers are masters of illusion and control, subverting the enemy’s Energy for their own use, and that of their allies. Combined with any other profession, their skills provide excellent support, turning enemies’ powers against them and changing the very fabric of reality to hinder foes and help allies. Mesmers have the ability to cast spells quickly, which can make all the difference in the heat of battle. Their powers of domination allow them to take control of enemy skills and Energy. Their unique illusionary talents can slow or even halt enemy movement and skill casting, or cause imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies. While Mesmers are not known for brute strength, their ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy’s resources more than compensates.

Is what the GW manuscripts say about mesmers. When Anet sat around and created the classes, mesmer was supposed to be a class that would shut down enemies, stealing their energy, reducing their damage output, etc.
I would say that is how mesmer is "meant to be played". And you will find that playing a mesmer like that is a lot harder to playing say, a warrior, as it is "meant to be played."

But if you will run OP generic discord support builds then of course it won't be challenging and you will get bored very quickly.

maxxfury · Oct 20, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

I should probably clarify what i meant by playing a class "as it is meant to be played". eg:

Mesmers are masters of illusion and control, subverting the enemy’s Energy for their own use, and that of their allies. Combined with any other profession, their skills provide excellent support, turning enemies’ powers against them and changing the very fabric of reality to hinder foes and help allies. Mesmers have the ability to cast spells quickly, which can make all the difference in the heat of battle. Their powers of domination allow them to take control of enemy skills and Energy. Their unique illusionary talents can slow or even halt enemy movement and skill casting, or cause imaginary illnesses that drain Health and Energy from foes while healing and energizing allies. While Mesmers are not known for brute strength, their ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy’s resources more than compensates.

Alas we cant turn an enemies energy to aid out party with either heals or E-managment

And again we cant use any effective E-denial in pve :S with big E-pools and mad regens

but i also seem to recall anet telling us to run warriors with hamstring and firestorm :P And with the game changing so much from what it used to be in proph only times those descriptions dont bare a whole lot of Resemblance to what is effective all at and what is even possible in the case of the mesmer

but id love a pve where edenial ect is worhtwhile and fun

Allamorph · Oct 20, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

So when people say play a class as its meant to be played they pretty much mean, without OP pve skills. Basically the old school way of playing BEFORE pve skills were added.

Actually, this made sense. I get what you guys are saying now. And I agree; that type of play would seem to be more like a spaghetti-western store-front character. Which is boring. So I'll retract my earlier 'stodgy' remark.

But I'm still going to stand by the statement that Mes isn't hard. It's just not simple, it takes a bit more thought. Now, if you can't think then I can see where that'd be a bit of an issue. =P But I like to assume most people are capable of thought. (Call it a character flaw of mine, I dunno.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Using semantics is not helping anyone.

God forbid I use semantics. Whoops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

but i also seem to recall anet telling us to run warriors with hamstring and firestorm :P

I saw that. =P

draxynnic · Oct 21, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

but id love a pve where edenial ect is worhtwhile and fun

So. Very. Agreed.

Utaku · Oct 21, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

They're certainly not the hardest, (I think being good at monking requires more skill) but they are the class that require the most bar tweaking for the area ahead.

That's also what makes them fun to play to me.

Tenebrae · Oct 21, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utaku

They're certainly not the hardest, (I think being good at monking requires more skill) but they are the class that require the most bar tweaking for the area ahead.

That's also what makes them fun to play to me.

Well , for the bolded part , for me that is part of "playing the game" so yes , monks can have a hard time but for the overall "bill" , mesmers are harder / less easier / <whatever adjective about being diff to play> .

Utaku · Oct 21, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Well that's only going to be difficult if you don't know what you're going to face.

I would say mesmer is the hardest profession to discover the game with.